The
Modern Occultist
Interview #22
Nick: Host of "The Occult Rejects Podcast"
Nick is the host of The Occult Rejects and founder of the Occult Research Institute. His journey began with an interest in conspiracy theories before developing into a deeper study of ceremonial magic, Qabalah, planetary magic, meditation, and occult philosophy. Drawing from his background in the OTO, he brings together practitioners, researchers, and scholars from widely different traditions, with the goal of connecting serious historical research, practical experience, and overlooked areas of esoteric thought.
MODERN OCCULTIST
You come at this from an OTO
background, but the show hosts everything from Voodoo to Plotinus to elemental
witchcraft. Do you find yourself translating other traditions into
ceremonial-magic terms to make sense of them, or has hosting so many different practitioners
actually changed how you think about your own system?
NICK
I think the answer is both.
Coming from an OTO and ceremonial-magical background, I naturally look for
correspondences between systems, and Crowley’s 777 has had a major
influence on the way I do that. It trains you to see how gods, angels, symbols,
planets, elements, colors, herbs, stones, and spiritual ideas can occupy
similar positions within different traditions.
Because of that, I have seen how certain figures can sometimes function interchangeably within a ritual framework—not because the gods or deities are literally identical, but because they may express a similar force, principle, or symbolic role. A god, angel, spirit, or mythological figure from one culture may correspond to a figure from another system through ideas such as solar power, wisdom, death, fertility, warfare, healing, or transformation.
The same thing happens with
practical ritual materials. Different traditions may use the same herb,
incense, crystal, color, or planetary association for a very similar purpose,
even when those traditions developed in different places or used completely different
theological language. You may find the same plant being used for purification,
protection, love, divination, or altered states of consciousness across several
systems. Seeing those patterns does make me believe there are certain recurring
human experiences and symbolic relationships underneath the different
vocabularies.
At the same time, hosting people from different traditions has taught me not to assume that a correspondence means complete equivalence. 777 is an incredibly useful map, but it is still a map created through a particular Western esoteric framework. Two deities may share a planetary or elemental correspondence without being culturally, historically, or spiritually identical. I try to use comparison as a doorway into understanding rather than using it to flatten every tradition into ceremonial magic.
Studying the people named in the Gnostic Mass has also expanded the way I think. Once you seriously research those figures, you begin moving beyond Crowley alone and into philosophy, alchemy, Hermeticism, mysticism, Gnosticism, poetry, science, and religious history. The saints named in the Mass represent a much larger intellectual and spiritual ancestry. They show that Thelema did not appear in isolation. It was influenced by generations of thinkers who wrestled with questions about divinity, consciousness, nature, freedom, transformation, and the relationship between the human being and the cosmos. Gnosticism is obviously present in the Gnostic Mass, but so are philosophical and alchemical ways of thinking. Alchemy, for example, gives you a language for understanding ritual as transformation rather than simply worship. Philosophy forces you to examine what you actually mean when you speak about God, the soul, will, truth, or reality. Gnosticism introduces questions about direct knowledge, spiritual authority, and whether salvation or liberation comes through belief, initiation, experience, or awakening.
What has changed most for me is that I no longer see my own system as the measuring stick for every other tradition. I still use my OTO background as a point of reference because that is where I began, but now I try to let a tradition explain itself before I start drawing comparisons. And honestly, hearing so many different people speak has changed how I understand the OTO as well. It has made me see which parts may be universal patterns of ritual and initiation, and which parts are specifically Thelemic assumptions that I once treated as universal truths.
So, hosting practitioners from Voodoo, witchcraft, Gnosticism, the Left-Hand Path, and other traditions has changed my relationship with my own system. I still recognize correspondences, and I still use ceremonial magic as one of my primary languages, but I no longer assume it is the only language capable of explaining what is happening. The show has made me look at the OTO and Thelema less as isolated systems and more as parts of a much larger conversation. Sometimes different traditions really do appear to touch the same forces through different gods, spirits, substances, symbols, and practices. The challenge is learning how to recognize those connections without erasing the differences that make each tradition what it is.
Also, through researching the
figures named in the Gnostic Mass, I began noticing that certain areas of
occult history and thought are no longer explored as seriously as they once
were. Seeing those gaps in the community has pushed me to deepen my own research
and focus more closely on the subjects that I feel are being overlooked or
inadequately covered.
MO
The name itself, “Occultists,” “Rejects,”
and “Mystics,” and the “Occult Research Institute” as a multi-contributor
project suggest you're building something bigger than a podcast feed. What's
the actual gap you saw that neither academic occult scholarship nor the more
sensationalized corners of the internet were filling? What else can you tell us
about the Institute, which is a truly amazing initiative?
NICK
The gap I saw was between two extremes. On one side, academic occult scholarship can be incredibly valuable, but it is often written for specialists and kept at a distance from the people who are actually practicing these traditions. On the other side, the internet tends to reduce the occult to shock value, conspiracy, aesthetics, or quick claims that are repeated without much historical or practical examination.
What seemed to be missing was a space where serious research, lived experience, and actual practice could exist in the same conversation. I wanted to hear from practitioners without treating everything they said as automatically true, but I also did not want to dismiss their experiences simply because they could not be easily measured or explained academically. I also noticed that many discussions focus heavily on famous names, dramatic rituals, and supernatural claims, while neglecting the deeper questions. What does ritual actually do to attention, memory, emotion, the body, and the nervous system? Why do different traditions use similar herbs, stones, colors, symbols, rhythms, and forms of repetition? How much of ritual is theological, how much is psychological, how much is physiological, and where do those categories overlap? Through researching the people named in the Gnostic Mass, I also realized how much material had fallen out of regular occult discussion. There were entire histories involving philosophy, alchemy, mysticism, science, poetry, and religious dissent that were rarely being explored outside of specialized circles. That made me feel that the occult community was sometimes inheriting symbols without fully investigating the people, ideas, and historical movements behind them.
That is really the space I wanted The Occult Rejects to occupy. Not purely academic, not purely sensational, and not committed to defending one system. The goal is to examine occult traditions seriously, speak directly with the people practicing them, compare systems without flattening their differences, and investigate what may actually be happening beneath the language of magic. One of the main reasons I bring so many different people onto the show is that I do not believe I know everything, and I do not want to pretend that I do. The occult is far too broad for one person to speak with authority on every tradition, philosophy, historical period, or practice. Bringing other researchers and practitioners onto the show allows them to speak in their own voices and contribute knowledge that I may not have.
I also think many of the great occultists of the past were polymaths. They were not studying only ritual or theology. They were engaging with philosophy, medicine, astronomy, mathematics, art, language, alchemy, politics, and science. That broader approach is something I want to encourage through The Occult Rejects and the Occult Research Institute. Instead of building everything around one personality or one system, I want to bring together people with different areas of expertise who can strengthen the larger body of research. A major inspiration for that structure was actually the way RZA built the Wu-Tang Clan. Wu-Tang had a collective identity, but the individual members still had their own styles, careers, projects, and voices outside of the group. They could come together as something larger without losing what made each person distinct. That is similar to what I am trying to build. The Occult Rejects is the shared platform, but the people involved should still have their own outlets, research, identities, and areas of specialization. The Occult Research Institute website is meant to help create a home for that material and allow the work to grow beyond individual podcast episodes.
I am not interested in
positioning myself as the final authority on the occult. I would rather create
a network where knowledgeable people can contribute what they know, challenge
one another, preserve overlooked research, and still maintain their own voices.
The goal is not to make everyone think the same way. It is to create something
larger through the combined strength of people who bring different knowledge to
the table.
MO
After hosting a scholar like Dr.
Angela Puca to specifically correct the record on the Left-Hand Path, what's
the misconception you still find yourself correcting most often—and has your
own read on the left-hand/right-hand framing shifted at all after years of
sitting across from practitioners on both sides of it?
NICK
The misconception I still find myself correcting most often is the idea that the Left-Hand Path simply means evil, Satanism, selfishness, or doing whatever you want without consequences, while the Right-Hand Path represents morality, goodness, and spiritual discipline. That framing is convenient, but it falls apart once you actually speak with practitioners and examine how these terms have been used historically. A lot of people hear “Left-Hand Path” and immediately imagine shock value, inverted Christianity, or destructive behavior. Those things may appear in certain groups, but they do not define the entire category. For many practitioners, the focus is more on individual sovereignty, direct experience, self-deification, antinomianism, or refusing to surrender the self into a larger religious authority. Even then, those ideas can mean very different things depending on the person or tradition. My conversation with Dr. Angela Puca helped reinforce how complicated the terminology really is. These categories are not timeless, universally agreed-upon divisions. They have histories, and they have often been used polemically—sometimes to define outsiders, condemn rivals, or force very different traditions into a binary they would never have used for themselves.
After years of interviewing people on both sides, my own understanding has definitely shifted. I used to think the distinction was much cleaner than it actually is. Now I see the Left-Hand and Right-Hand Paths less as two permanently opposed teams and more as strategies, tendencies, or orientations that can overlap within the same practitioner. Someone may pursue union with a divine source while also emphasizing personal sovereignty. Another person may use transgressive symbolism but live according to an extremely strict ethical and disciplined system. Meanwhile, someone identifying with the Right-Hand Path can still be motivated by power, ego, hierarchy, or control. The label alone does not tell you the quality of the person or the seriousness of the practice.
The show has also taught me that
some practitioners do not fit comfortably into either category, and others may
use the terms differently depending on whether they are discussing theology,
ritual technique, ethics, or the ultimate goal of initiation. The binary can be
useful as an entry point, but it becomes misleading when people treat it as a
complete map of the occult. So, the main thing I find myself correcting is the
assumption that Left-Hand Path means morally corrupt and Right-Hand Path means
spiritually pure. Sitting across from actual practitioners has made me far more
interested in what someone believes, what they practice, how disciplined they
are, and what their system is intended to produce than in which side of a label
they claim.
MO
In your personal opinion—and to
the benefit of new students and initiates—how would you describe “Occult
Philosophy”?
NICK
In my personal opinion, occult philosophy is the study of the hidden principles believed to exist beneath religion, nature, consciousness, and reality itself. I do not think it should be reduced to spells, secret societies, supernatural claims, or ritual techniques. Those things may be expressions of occult philosophy, but they are not the whole of it. To me, figures like Empedocles, Plato, and Plotinus are some good examples of occult philosophy. Empedocles was not simply discussing the four elements as physical substances. He was also presenting a vision of reality governed by cosmic forces such as Love and Strife, with the human soul participating in a larger cycle of separation and return. Plato dealt with invisible forms, the immortality of the soul, divine intelligence, sacred number, and the idea that the visible world is only a partial reflection of a higher reality. Plotinus developed that further through the One, the Intellect, the World Soul, and the soul’s return toward its divine source.
Even when these thinkers are
classified strictly as philosophers, many of the questions they were asking are
the same questions later occult traditions continued to explore: What is the
structure of reality? What is the soul? How does the visible world relate to
the invisible? Can a human being transform consciousness and come into direct
contact with a higher order of existence?
I would include Gnosticism as well. Gnostic systems deal with hidden knowledge, the structure of the cosmos, the divine spark within humanity, the forces that keep human beings ignorant, and the possibility of liberation through direct knowledge or awakening. Those are clearly occult-philosophical concerns, even though different Gnostic groups expressed them through different myths and theological systems.
I would even argue that religious texts, and religions themselves at their deepest levels, contain occult philosophy. Beneath the public teachings, moral laws, rituals, and institutions, there are usually deeper questions about creation, death, the soul, divine presence, revelation, transformation, and humanity’s relationship with the unseen. Mystical interpretations of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions often reveal philosophical systems that are far more complex than the surface-level versions most people encounter. Unfortunately, I think occult philosophy has become deeply misunderstood and, in many cases, dumbed down. It is often presented as a collection of correspondences, social-media quotes, aesthetic symbols, or claims about manifesting whatever you want. People may inherit the symbols and practices without ever studying the philosophical foundations that gave those symbols meaning. Some of that confusion may also come from the fact that occult knowledge was intentionally hidden. Sometimes secrecy was necessary because certain ideas could bring persecution, imprisonment, or death. In other cases, teachings were concealed through myths, symbols, allegories, initiation, and coded language because practitioners believed the knowledge could be misunderstood, abused, or reduced if it were given without preparation. However, secrecy can preserve knowledge and distort it at the same time. When teachings are passed through fragments, symbols, initiatory grades, or intentionally obscure language, later generations may inherit the shell of a system without understanding its original purpose. Sometimes people preserve the secret so successfully that they also lose the explanation.
For new students and initiates, I would describe occult philosophy as the intellectual and spiritual foundation beneath occult practice. Ritual is not just something you perform. A symbol is not merely something you wear. A correspondence is not simply a list in a book. Each one emerges from a particular understanding of humanity, nature, divinity, and the cosmos.
The real purpose of studying
occult philosophy is not just to collect secrets. It is to learn how earlier
thinkers understood reality, to question the assumptions within our own
traditions, and to determine whether our practices are actually transforming
the way we perceive ourselves and the world. Without that philosophical
foundation, occultism can easily become empty performance. With it, the
practice becomes part of a much older and deeper investigation into what human
beings are, what reality is, and what may exist beyond the limits of ordinary
perception.
MO
What was your personal start on
your own journey on this path (or chosen profession)?
NICK
My personal journey into occultism actually began through an interest in conspiracy theories. Over time, I became less interested in the surface-level claims and more interested in the occult ideas, symbols, secret societies, and religious philosophies that kept appearing behind them. That eventually pushed me toward studying occultism for its own sake rather than only through the lens of conspiracy. Out of the different branches I encountered, I found myself most attracted to ceremonial magick. I was drawn to the structure of it—the rituals, correspondences, symbolism, discipline, and the idea that different parts of a system could work together as a complete method of spiritual development.
At that point, I started looking for an actual magical organization near me where I could learn and meet people practicing these traditions. The only accessible group I found was the OTO. I had already heard of the organization and had read some of Crowley’s work, so I eventually decided to pull the trigger and see what it was actually about for myself. From the beginning, I was especially interested in Qabalah and planetary magick. The idea that planets, gods, angels, colors, numbers, herbs, stones, and states of consciousness could all be connected through a larger system immediately appealed to me. I wanted to understand not only how those correspondences were used in ritual, but also the philosophy behind why they were believed to work together.
Meditation and breathing
techniques were also a major part of my early practice. Before I became as
focused on historical research and the wider philosophical side of occultism, I
spent a great deal of time working with concentration, breath control, visualization,
and altered states of awareness. Those practices gave me a more disciplined
foundation and helped me understand that ceremonial magick was not only about
elaborate rituals or collecting occult information. It also required learning
how to control attention, observe the mind, and work consistently on yourself.
So, my path moved from conspiracy theories, into a deeper fascination with
occult history and symbolism, and then into actual ceremonial practice through
the OTO. What began as curiosity gradually became a much broader investigation
into Qabalah, planetary magick, meditation, religion, philosophy, and the ways
occult systems attempt to transform both consciousness and the individual.
MO
To this magazine, the concept of
“modern occultism” can (and should) be equally viewed from both the academic
and practical sides. What would you recommend to a person only now coming along
to these subjects, and is uncertain if an objective academic career, or a true
“practical path” may be right for them?
NICK
I would first tell them not to feel pressured into choosing between the academic and practical paths too quickly. I do not think they are necessarily opposites. Some of the strongest researchers have practical experience, and some of the most serious practitioners are deeply committed to history, philosophy, languages, and critical scholarship. The two approaches can correct each other.
Academic study can teach you how to evaluate sources, identify historical context, recognize later inventions, and separate what a tradition originally taught from what people now claim it taught. It also teaches intellectual humility. You begin to understand that words like magic, witchcraft, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, and the Left-Hand Path have complicated histories and do not mean the same thing in every century or culture. Practical work teaches something different. It shows you what ritual feels like from the inside. It teaches discipline, repetition, emotional control, symbolism, attention, and the difference between reading about a practice and actually attempting it. There are aspects of ritual experience that cannot be fully understood from the outside, just as personal experience alone cannot establish the historical truth of every belief attached to it.
For someone just beginning, I would recommend developing both sides before making a permanent decision. Read academic scholarship, but also read primary sources rather than relying entirely on modern summaries. Learn who wrote a text, when it was written, what culture produced it, and how later groups reinterpreted it. At the same time, begin with simple, grounded practices such as meditation, journaling, prayer, observation, basic ritual structure, or studying a symbolic system consistently. I would also tell new students to document what they do. Keep records of rituals, dreams, emotional responses, expectations, successes, and failures. That helps prevent memory from reshaping every experience into something more dramatic than it was. It also allows the practitioner to examine patterns over time instead of accepting every unusual feeling as supernatural proof.
Discernment is important on both paths. Academic institutions can become overly dismissive of lived religious experience, but practical communities can become overly accepting of unsupported claims, invented histories, and charismatic authorities. A title, initiation, degree, lineage, or large following does not automatically make someone correct. Students should learn to ask what evidence supports a claim, where an interpretation came from, and whether disagreement is permitted within the group presenting it. I would also advise people not to rush into initiations, oaths, expensive courses, or relationships with teachers simply because they are afraid of missing hidden knowledge. A legitimate path should be able to survive careful questioning. Secrecy can sometimes serve a ritual or initiatory purpose, but it can also be used to conceal weak teaching, manipulation, or the fact that there is no deeper answer.
If someone is drawn toward an academic career, they should understand that studying occultism professionally will require more than being interested in the occult. It may involve religious studies, history, anthropology, philosophy, archival research, ancient or modern languages, and learning how to make an argument that can withstand criticism. The academic path requires discipline and can sometimes demand that personal belief be placed to the side while examining evidence. If someone feels drawn toward a practical path, I would still encourage serious scholarship. Practice without study can become fantasy, repetition, or dependence on authority. But scholarship without any understanding of practice can sometimes miss why these traditions mattered to the people who lived them. Ultimately, I would recommend that new students remain open long enough to discover what kind of relationship they actually want with these subjects. They may become scholars, practitioners, or both. They may practice for several years and later decide their contribution is historical research. They may begin academically and eventually realize that direct participation helps them understand the material more honestly.
The important thing is not
choosing the identity that sounds most impressive. It is developing the
discipline to study carefully, practice responsibly, question your own
conclusions, and remain willing to change your mind. Modern occultism needs
practitioners who understand history and scholars who recognize that these
traditions are still living realities. The gap between the two is exactly where
some of the most valuable conversations can happen.
MO
What is one book, film, lecture,
or teacher that helped shape your journey and personal philosophies that you
would recommend to a new student or occult practitioner (or historian /
academic)?
NICK
It is difficult for me to reduce my answer to only one influence because different books, films, lectures, and teachers have shaped different parts of my journey. For books, I would recommend Aleister Crowley’s 777 and Gareth Knight’s A Practical Guide to Qabalistic Symbolism. Crowley’s 777 had a major influence on how I began recognizing correspondences across magical and religious systems. It helped me understand how gods, angels, planets, elements, colors, herbs, stones, and other symbols can represent related forces or ideas without necessarily being identical. It gave me a framework for comparing traditions while also encouraging me to look more deeply into where those correspondences came from.
Gareth Knight’s work helped make Qabalah feel less like an abstract chart that had to be memorized and more like a living philosophical and practical system. It helped me understand how the Tree of Life could be used to organize ideas about consciousness, mythology, psychology, ritual, and spiritual development. I would recommend reading the two together because 777 provides an enormous network of correspondences, while Knight helps give those correspondences philosophical structure and meaning.
For a film, I would recommend A Dark Song. I know a lot of occultists do not like it, or disagree with aspects of its portrayal of ritual magic, but I found the ending incredibly profound. To me, it captures something that is often overlooked in occult practice: after all the discipline, danger, suffering, and desire for power or revenge, the real transformation may be forgiveness. The final request reveals that the ritual has changed the practitioner’s understanding of what she actually needs. Whether someone considers the ritual technically accurate is less important to me than the spiritual and emotional truth expressed by that ending.
For lectures, I would encourage students to listen to David Shoemaker’s Living Thelema material. He has a way of discussing Thelema as something that can be psychologically examined, practically applied, and integrated into a person’s life rather than treated only as Crowley worship or the memorization of difficult texts. When it comes to teachers, I honestly cannot give only one name. Crowley obviously shaped the foundation of my own system, but I would never recommend that someone read Crowley without also reading later practitioners who clarify, challenge, and expand upon his work. David Shoemaker has been important for understanding the practical and psychological dimensions of Thelema. David Rankine brings an enormous amount of historical and practical knowledge concerning grimoires, spirits, Qabalah, and ceremonial magic. Josephine McCarthy’s work, particularly through Quareia, offers another serious approach to magical training that is not limited to a Thelemic framework.
I would recommend all of them
for different reasons, but I would also caution new students against searching
for a single teacher who supposedly possesses every answer. One of the most
important lessons I have learned is that no teacher, author, or system should
become your entire intellectual world. Read Crowley, but also read the people
Crowley studied. Learn from modern teachers, but compare their methods and
conclusions. Study both practitioners and academics. Pay attention to where
they agree, where they contradict one another, and what evidence or experience
supports their positions. The goal should not be to find one authority to think
for you. It should be to gather the strongest tools available, test them
responsibly, and gradually develop the knowledge and discernment necessary to
think for yourself.
MO
And finally, what is one daily
activity that you believe is a MUST for all seekers of the occult philosophies
and/or arts?
NICK
Meditation, meditation,
meditation, and maybe some Qabalah.
(Every day, Modern Occultist News will present "This Day in Occult History" and your "Daily Occult Review" and will dive into the birthdays, rituals, breakthroughs, and crucial moments that shaped today’s many esoteric traditions. From the Hermetic revival to Witchcraft, from Crowley to cyberspace, we’ll bring the best stories and latest trends to today’s own modern occultists everywhere.)
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